So in order to cease your hatred, you should feel sorry for 邓小平、薄熙来 and yourself, and many many others, that's the way you show your love if you have any. -qliumfs(Cool) @埃德蒙顿华人论坛:埃德蒙顿枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of Edmonton

枫下沙龙 / 谈天说地 / I enjoy democracy today. Not only today, but yeasterday and tomorrow. Sorry, I should add "in Canada". -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-12 {1510} (#7995376@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛We don’t teach our children democracy in China. “Play fair”, “justice”, ”integrity”, ”dignity” etc. are not in our vocabulary. Instead, we train our children on “patriotism”, where “discipline”, “uniformity”, “national interest”, “power” are the things with which they are familiar when they step into adulthood. Look at this site….

You don’t need democracy, until someday your rights are being violated.

You don’t want democracy, until someday you find you are the one who is being abused and treated unfairly systemically.

You don’t appreciate democracy, until someday you are framed and you are totally silenced by the system.

Regardless of “real” democracy or “fake” democracy, the real difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is a monopoly on power. Several IDs on this site are raving that people who believe in "real" democracy should be more tolerant of those who believe in dictatorship. That is almost equivalent to a saying that you should understand and tolerate someone who is bullying you (because he can). So far, even “fake” democracy advocates don’t have any voice in China, let alone a share of power to do anything. How “fake” is that?

“What about if they get into power….” Someone may argue. Stop there. You are still thinking about dictatorship. Besides, it is a big “if”. You are hardwired to think that way since you were born. I don’t blame you.

Those IDs should learn some basics about democracy.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

Excellent point! Hopefully not only can we enjoy democracy in Canada, but can enjoy it in China in near future as well. -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-13 (#7995683@0)
SF -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-12 {98} (#7995701@0)
Sorry to know that you have had horrible experiences in China. Enjoy your freedom here in Canada.

在中国，每个人都有过或可能有这些horrible experiences。不要以为这些horrible experiences与自己无关，连彭德怀、刘少奇、林彪、邓小平、薄熙来这些共产党的高官都遭遇过这些horrible experiences，你和你的家人能够幸免？如果没有民主、人权和法制作保障，江、胡、习等 -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-14 {36} (#7999157@0)
也都逃不过这些horrible experiences。

这些horrible experience不是因为没有民主，而是因为没有法制，没有法制的民主比独裁更恐怖 -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-14 (#7999193@0)

为什么要把民主和法制对立起来？民主和法制从来就是相辅相成的。 -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-14 (#7999221@0)

在一个缺乏完善法律系统国家，如果民众阶层严重分化，改革成为了不可能的任务，因为带来的是无休无止的街头抗争，甚至是内战，相辅相成是在社会分化不严重的情况下才能发生 -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-14 (#7999249@0)

说时迟,那时快, 毛左已经对李承鹏动手了. 本坛应该也快了. -firetrain(火车头); 2013-1-14 (#7999271@0)

你给了个很好的例证，很多人即使到了加拿大很多年，也无法改变这种一贯的思维方式，想要用民主的方式达成在法律上的共识谈何容易？ -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-15 (#7999389@0)

那就建立一个完善的法律系统，这和民主一点也不矛盾，没有相应的民主，法律系统很可能成为一党一家的私法，这点道理都不懂？ -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-14 (#7999296@0)

不是我不懂，而是你想得太理想简单了，中国目前社会阶层分化严重，而相对开放和富裕的知识分子处于少数地位，如果阶层之间无法妥协，结果就是一场内乱之后被暴力收拾残局 -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-15 (#7999390@0)

中国目前社会阶层分化严重就是由独裁制度造成的，所以这个问题不可能由独裁制度来解决，独裁制度只能使这个问题越来越严重，各阶层之间越来越无法妥协。如果中国社会发生内乱，那也是由于独裁统治者的愚昧僵化和冥顽不化造成的。 -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-18 (#8007077@0)

I feel sorry for you and sincerely hope that your wounds have been healed completely. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-14 (#7999206@0)

I think you should feel sorry for 邓小平、薄熙来 and yourself, otherwise you will never heal your wounds, never. -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-14 (#7999235@0)

阿门 -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-14 {76} (#7999250@0)
Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.

Who said hatred? You sound like a Christian now. But I know you are not. :) How about a conscience? Some sympathy? Empathy? -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-14 (#7999264@0)

Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-14 (#7999268@0)

You should feel sorry for 邓小平、薄熙来 and yourself, and many many others, that's the way you show your love if you have any. -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-18 (#7999298@0)

阿门 #7999250@0) -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-18 (#8007097@0)

(#8007130@0) -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-18 (#8007612@0)

So in order to cease your hatred, you should feel sorry for 邓小平、薄熙来 and yourself, and many many others, that's the way you show your love if you have any. -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-18 (#8007130@0)

#7999379@0 -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-18 (#8007223@0)

愚昧麻木至极。 -lafeit(lafeit); 1.15 02:50 (#7999379@0) -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-18 (#8007608@0)

Hardcore, indeed. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-18 (#8007626@0)

(#8005831@0) -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-19 (#8007835@0)

愚昧麻木至极。 -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-15 (#7999379@0)

Morning! -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-15 {3211} (#7999387@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛"I Gotta Find Peace Of Mind"

I gotta find peace of mind
I know another cord...
I gotta find peace of mind
See, this what that voice in your head says
When you try to get peace of mind...
I gotta find peace of mind, I gotta find peace of mind
He says it's impossible, but I know it's possible
He says it's impossible, but I know it's possible
He says there's no me without him, please help me forget about him
He takes all my energy, trapped in my memory
Constantly holding me, constantly holding me
I need to tell you all, all the pain he's caused, mmmm
I need to tell I'm, I'm undone because, mmmm
He says it's impossible, but I know it's possible
He says it's impossible without him, but I know it's possible
To finally be in love, and know the real meaning of
A lasting relationship, not based on ownership
I trust every part of you, cuz all that I... All that you say you do
You love me despite myself, sometimes I fight myself
I just can't believe that you, would have anything to do
With someone so insecure, someone so immature
Oh you inspire me, to be the higher me
You made my desire pure, you made my desire pure
Just tell me what to say, I can't find the words to say
Please don't be mad with me, I have no identity
All that I've known is gone, all I was building on
I don't wanna walk with you, how do I talk to you
Touch my mouth with your hands, touch my mouth with your hands
Oh I wanna understand, the meaning of your embrace
I know now I have to face, the temptations of my past
Please don't let me disgrace, where my devotion lays
Now that I know the truth, now that it's no excuse
Keeping me from your love, what was I thinking of?
Holding me from your love, what was I thinking of?
You are my peace of mind, that old me is left behind
You are my peace of mind, that old me is left behind
He says it's impossible, but I know it's possible
He says it's improbable, but I know it's tangeable
He says it's not grabbable, but I know it's haveable
Cuz anything's possible, oh anything is possible
Please come free my mind, please come meet my mind
Can you see my mind, oh
Won't you come free my mind?
Oh I know it's possible
Anything, anything, anything, anything, anything, yeeey
Anything, anything, anything, anything, yeeey
Anything, anything, anything, anything, anything, yeeey
Oh free! Free, free, free your mind
Free, free your mind... free, free your mind
Free, free, free, free your mind
Oh, it's so possible, oh it's so possible
I'm telling you it's possible, I'm telling you it's possible
Free, free... free, free... free, free... get free now
Free, free... free, free, free, free... free, free
You're my peace of mind, that old me is left behind
You're my peace of mind, you're my peace of mind
He's my peace of mind, he's my peace of mind
He's my peace of mind, he's my peace of mind
What a joy it is to be alive
To get another chance, yeah
Everyday's another chance
To get it right this time
Everyday's another chance
Oh what a merciful, merciful, merciful God
Oh what a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful God更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

(#8005831@0) -lafeit(lafeit); 2013-1-19 (#8007837@0)

Points well put! -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-12 (#7995719@0)
+1 -redjunk(rolia); 2013-1-12 (#7995768@0)
那句怎么说来着？装睡的叫不醒，装傻的教不灵，楼主说的没错，只可惜是对猪谈琴，呵呵。 -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2013-1-12 (#7995776@0)

SF -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-12 (#7995779@0)

同志们好，同志们辛苦了，沙发到处地搬，费人力呀！ -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2013-1-12 (#7995783@0)

文革是否已经走远？华人论坛里满地都是答案。 -winterstorm(打酱油的); 21:29 (#7995777@0) -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-12 (#7995787@0)

你是说这个么？　“仅就成某其人品来论，也不过小丑一个，居然到处现眼，呵呵。 -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 20:48 (#7995725@0) ” -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-12 (#7995796@0)

就是嘛，人家成大哥无非是犯了个＂全天下男人都会犯的错＂嘛，呵呵。。 (#7995770@0) -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-12 (#7995800@0)

成大哥犯了什么错？是不是持有阿拉不认可的观点？ -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-12 (#7995804@0)

谁让他说山姆大叔的坏话, 犯大忌. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-12 (#7995810@0)

那是那是。是可忍孰不可忍！绝对要批倒屁臭，再踏上一只脚，叫他永世不得翻身！ -wincity(红卫兵); 2013-1-12 (#7995817@0)

这个。。确实无法认可，估计您也未必认可。如果忘了，不妨GOOGLE一下＂成龙＂＂全天下男人都会犯的错＂。这厮更不齿的是，做了事，居然没有一点男人敢做敢当的气概。 -alaabracadabra(AlaAbracadabra); 2013-1-12 (#7995839@0)

兵哥很天真的, 真的不知道说...GOOGLE也不会的... -firetrain(火车头); 2013-1-12 (#7995858@0)

你迎合成龙的言论，难道你老豆也是伙夫？ -redjunk(rolia); 21:17 (#7995762@0) -bigjoe(月明风清); 2013-1-12 (#7995841@0)

你这是挑拨离间啊 -redjunk(rolia); 2013-1-13 (#7996021@0)

刺哥无事献殷勤...大家小心啊哈哈哈 -redjunk(rolia); 1.12 21:33 (#7995786@0) -bigjoe(月明风清); 2013-1-13 (#7996057@0)

刺哥无事献殷勤...大家小心啊哈哈哈 -redjunk(rolia); 2013-1-12 (#7995786@0)

做得还不够, 请多多指正. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-12 (#7995813@0)

thank you for sharing, and for supporting. 中宣部统一口径，不搞“美式民主”，树个靶子，洗脑的时辰，容易入味，反感民主或者号称反感民运的ID，自我发挥，创造性地抛出原创名词，一个是伪民主，一个是民主革命派，狡辩的时辰，好把水搅浑。 -table(桌子来了); 2013-1-13 (#7996089@0)

这是中国的历史事实，中国每一次的民主实验都是内战，饥荒，和无休无止的内斗，只有搁置争议发展经济使中产成为主流才能摆脱这种野蛮的民主化，别用你简单思维来揣度别人的深刻 -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-14 (#7999220@0)

The more you post, the more I feel you are the one I am writing about. "中国每一次的民主实验都是内战，饥荒，和无休无止的内斗". The problem lies in dictatorship itself, not in people's desire for democracy. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-14 (#7999247@0)

i am not trying to change your mind, enjoy yourself. -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-14 (#7999253@0)
社会从来不会因为人的某些人的期望改变，那些用生命去争取民主的人最后都成了独裁的帮凶，这就是中国的历史现实 -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-14 (#7999265@0)

Regardless of what reality of China you believe in, there are "certain people" (in your words) are willing to give up life for something they think are dearer: dignity. That is something makes us, human beings, different from animals. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-14 (#7999279@0)

一个担当的人，一个成熟的人在做任何事情都要考虑what if，只有思维不健全的人或者别有用心的人才会不考虑what if，甚至打击那些提出what if 的人。 -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-14 (#7999184@0)

Although I don't understand exactly what you mean, I don't have the capability to "打击" anyone. You post whatever you want, I am merely disagreeing here, the same thing as you are doing here. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-14 (#7999252@0)

你可以承认你是为反对而反对，但不要以己度人 -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-14 (#7999259@0)

语无伦次！ -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-14 (#7999287@0)

允许别人说话好吗? -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-14 (#7999291@0)

我怎么不允许别人说话了？莫名其妙！ -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-15 (#7999301@0)

Calm down please. Thanks. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-15 (#7999306@0)

It's you who should calm down, ridiculous! -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-15 (#7999318@0)

Night -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-15 (#7999324@0)

说得好听！what if 三年大饥荒？what if 文革？这些what if 你考虑过吗？ -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-14 (#7999286@0)

如今的中国已经是知识分子掌权的时代，而不是农民领袖的时代，在搞什么推翻政府搞民主的结果必然是又一个农民领袖的独裁时代，只有大家都是中产后搞民主才能避免这种悲剧 -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-15 (#7999392@0)

不可乱用知识分子这个概念，不是说读了几年书就是知识分子了，真正的知识分子要有独立的人格，独立的思考判断能力，具有对国家、民族和社会的正义感、责任感和使命感，而那些当今在中国掌权的人没有一个具有这些素质。 -qliumfs(Cool); 2013-1-18 {152} (#8007065@0)
这些人实际上仍然是之前的那帮农民痞子帮主唯唯诺诺的跟屁虫，仍然把那帮农民痞子帮主视为偶像崇拜，亦步亦趋，不敢越雷池半步，与农民痞子掌权没有本质上的不同。

very well said! some of us never bother learning something new such as how their adopting society works (e.g. the jury system). -hsl(胡司令/bgk); 2013-1-14 (#7999277@0)

Hey, where have you been? Glad to see you here. It is not fair to have fun by myself. :) -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-14 (#7999282@0)

:) -hsl(胡司令/bgk); 2013-1-15 (#7999436@0)

司令, 真不好意思, 你这不是说我吗? 我有一次当陪审团的机会但千方百计推掉了. 那是个很复杂的案子, 有人说搞不好要拖几个月. 没米下锅怎么行啊? 所以三思而后行, 还是当逃兵了. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-14 (#7999289@0)

Do you know why in democracy, judicial system is a very costly process? That is exactly the precaution we need to take when deciding to take something (rights, freedom etc.) away from someone. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-15 {82} (#7999309@0)
Next time when you are given jury duty, do your best to give the guy a fair trial.

Thanks for the lecture. Would love to do it next time -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-15 {26} (#7999323@0)
If you pay me full salary.
costly indeed, to the court and to the citizens. we should always wonder why it's worth the cost (or not). -hsl(胡司令/bgk); 2013-1-15 (#7999688@0)

In some, if not many, cases it is not. Or the three former Nortel executives would have been brought to justice. Interestingly they are free to go after ruined so many people's lives. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-15 (#7999745@0)

sorry i am talking about jury system only. -hsl(胡司令/bgk); 2013-1-15 (#7999845@0)

not you. the system is not rigid, and people are allowed to be exempted from duty for practical reasons...but we can afford time reading online and learning how it works. -hsl(胡司令/bgk); 2013-1-15 (#7999435@0)

just to clarify: people can still be excused for valid reasons; this is not the same as those automatically exempted due to certain professions. -hsl(胡司令/bgk); 2013-1-15 (#7999627@0)

The letter should have a list of professions that are exempted. Hopefully you did read the letter thoroughly. -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-15 (#7999441@0)

What profession I am in then? -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-15 (#7999446@0)

How would I know? -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-15 (#7999451@0)

Not one of those on the list of professions that are exempted. -thornthorn($oOHoly MolyOo$); 2013-1-15 {172} (#7999465@0)
I just pretended to be biased, opinionated and somewhat unfriendly to certain people... Then I was free to go. That's not my intention but I had to put food on the table.

Interesting. -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-15 (#7999469@0)

说的很好，不过呢像桌子说的，有很多装睡的人，说了也没用。来加拿大的大陆人，也许真的有被洗脑的，不过我看，大部分人还是清醒的。为什么有许多人明明知道专制的问题，反而拥护专制呢？比如习主席一家，在文革中没少遭罪，为什么到现在还在为老毛/文革辩护呢？ -ding_ding(丁_丁); 2013-1-15 {476} (#7999527@0)
说白了，就是在这些人的头脑里没有任何信仰，没有任何价值观，唯眼前利益说话。有的人来加拿大，遭到不少挫折，可能由于文化，语言等等的关系，觉得不舒服。觉得西方的民主都是伪民主，自己也没捞到啥好处，还是中国好。他们口口声声伪民主多么不好，中国的制度很好，为啥不回中国去呢？其实答案很简单，还是利益，回去他也没啥好处可捞。
抛开专制，民主不谈，我觉得中国最可悲的地方在于不管是统治权力阶层也好，底层百姓也好，多数已经没有了理想，没有了价值观，一味追求自我利益最大化。中国何去何从。。。

不是因为别人装睡,而是你在真睡,把梦想当成现实. -coldring(coldring); 2013-1-15 (#7999533@0)

在民主国家你想装睡也好，真睡也行，回到中国去，想装睡也装不成。 -ding_ding(丁_丁); 2013-1-15 (#7999541@0)

每个人都要面对现实,不管你在哪里,光有小资梦是没用的, -coldring(coldring); 2013-1-15 (#7999564@0)

如果美国黑人没有梦想，估计现在还在被隔离，谁能想到还会有黑人总统？ -ding_ding(丁_丁); 2013-1-15 (#7999575@0)

鸦片战争以后中国人就有了你说的西方民主梦想，160年后的今天还有人在重复梦想，而不是去了解为什么失败，很滑稽吧？ -winterflybird(winter); 2013-1-15 (#7999744@0)

I won't say it fails. It is in process. So, instead of making yourself an obstacle, try to be a lubricant to something truly meaningful. It is guaranteed not to be an easy path with so many people like you. -nothanks(ciel); 2013-1-15 (#7999800@0)

写的不错。 -rollor(Rollor 印刷店); 2013-1-15 (#8000093@0)
+1.很多人的糊涂也表现再不承人爱自己的祖国很政治问题和历史怒可以讨论。并为这种现象辩护。 -humormaster(李聃--乐山乐水乐美人); 2013-1-18 (#8007184@0)

您可以继续不在乎，不过你的错别字和病句已经开始影响你的表达了。 -winterstorm(打酱油的); 2013-1-18 (#8007228@0)

顶一下。民主没有 yeasterday ：） -statstar(tiger); 2013-1-19 (#8007865@0)

@Edmonton

So in order to cease your hatred, you should feel sorry for 邓小平、薄熙来 and yourself, and many many others, that's the way you show your love if you have any.

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