Language is no longer a problem for us. -watersd(Waters) @埃德蒙顿华人论坛:埃德蒙顿枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of Edmonton

工作学习 / 事业与工作 / Do we IT guys have a future? -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-24 {2477} (#5903814@0)

grossly disagree. We're not "the renovation engine", but the "automation engine". -wincity(toad); 2010-2-24 (#5903825@0)

.. and "automation" is not a kind of renovation ? -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-24 (#5903833@0)

automation isn't "renovation", it's revolution. -wincity(toad); 2010-2-24 (#5903836@0)

LOL. I must have seen HGTV too much lately with my wife.. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-24 (#5903861@0)

You must have updated your home and garden to the next level -thornthorn(Holy Moly); 2010-2-25 {30} (#5904829@0)
Not for sale, right? HA HA HA

蜗居 -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-25 (#5907255@0)

"due to the over spending in the last couple of decades",??? -bully2007(2007); 2010-2-24 (#5903839@0)

Simply compared the average saving and debt per family in 1982 and 2002.. The intention was not to pursue the accuracy of the stats..as long as you got my idea. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-24 (#5903897@0)

将来（包括现在），逐渐转变成杂技，魔术或者相声一类的行当，吃百家饭，穿百家衣。逢年过节邀请唱个堂会，不太会长期在那家工作。侯宝林回忆录里就讲解放前在天津，沈阳的场子里签合同演出几个月，直到解放了，成了人民演员，才固定工作了。 -caa(移民的孙悟空lifeisok); 2010-2-24 (#5903919@0)

社会主义好，至少从稳定工作的角度来看。高行健在一篇小说开头讲，解放了，人们终于不担心碗饭了。 -caa(移民的孙悟空lifeisok); 2010-2-24 (#5903926@0)
所以我工作中一直坚持练嘴皮子。 -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-24 (#5903927@0)
My job is not IT but I work in the industry -revir(fun); 2010-2-24 {169} (#5903954@0)
Mr. Smith’s comments are absolute correct and unfortunately is where future lies, like it or not… I hope we all have a plan B somewhere in our back pocket to be ready.

totally disagree. There will be more and more IT Jobs. Just like the industry revolution era, it was kept growing for a century and more. -hurrah(猫眼); 2010-2-24 (#5903934@0)

越来越多工作不假。但种类繁多，有点像多伦多的华人菜馆，南北大菜，满汉全席，一家饭馆为了谋生，招待各路客人，全国各地的味道都要有一点。 -caa(移民的孙悟空lifeisok); 2010-2-24 (#5903941@0)
good for you.. very positive.. lol -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-25 (#5907264@0)

but there will be more and more IT technician Job. Actually most of IT jobs have already been kinds of labour style. Enjoy? Or Painful? -hurrah(猫眼); 2010-2-24 (#5903942@0)

没法子，人老珠黄，要吃饭，就只有无论如何变态的客人都要热情接待。 -caa(移民的孙悟空lifeisok); 2010-2-24 (#5903944@0)

想开些，总统不也是labor，也要笑迎八方客。 -caa(移民的孙悟空lifeisok); 2010-2-24 (#5903949@0)

computing power, like water or electricity, will adopt the "utility" model.. many people's dream, IT guys' nightmare, will come true with the new cloud technology. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-24 (#5903950@0)

走下神坛的电脑工，记得过去电影里，农村小朋友把鞋一扔，我要作赤脚医生。毛主席就是要让农村卫生员代替高高在上的医生。 -caa(移民的孙悟空lifeisok); 2010-2-24 (#5903956@0)
人们总想自助，自己干电脑的活，可惜，如此多年来，电脑系统越来越复杂，电脑工的工资越来越高。单位里的电脑工越来越多。谁都想自己开刀，自己开药，把医生辞退，可惜，医生越来越离不开。 -caa(移民的孙悟空lifeisok); 2010-2-24 (#5903968@0)

同意。其实最根本的原因没有什么好奇怪的，就是因为中国加入WTO的全球化。什么是全球化说白了就是自由贸易下的商品交换。美国和中国进行商品交换的时候，美国交换的产品科技含量高，具有独特性，即高溢价或Premium。从而带动了价格的提高，也带动了生产者的工资。 -landn(九天九地之行者); 2010-2-24 {459} (#5904073@0)
就是因为中国加入WTO的全球化。什么是全球化说白了就是自由贸易下的商品交换。美国和中国进行商品交换的时候，美国交换的产品科技含量高，具有独特性，即高溢价或Premium。从而带动了价格的提高，也带动了生产者的工资。同一样的事情，各位的工资比中国的高，大厨比中国的高。剃头的也比中国挣得多。本质上都是靠着商品交换时科技的premium. 可现在呢，随着北美科技产品领先地位的失去。两边制造的东西差不多。工资也最终会达到一个相对合理的程度。”

见我写的中国行（二）：钱不值钱（1）

中国做的最多的应该是再加工和组装，结果是使商品价格降低了。西方的工资高，有很多原因。虽然差距在缩小，北美的高科技依然领先。各位真心做IT的，这辈子都不用发愁。 -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-2-25 (#5904806@0)

你儿子将来做什么呢？ -vetra(豆泡果之多泡泡); 2010-2-25 (#5904978@0)

五岁时候他就说了：送Pizza. -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-2-25 (#5905066@0)

卖的贵的东西是有原因的，要么技术跟不上，要么品牌不够。这都不是一时的事情。比如激光打印机中国就没自己的牌子，因为造不出来。同样，美国工资比加拿大高，德国比希腊高。生产可以在别国进行，技术开发还是看的很牢的。 -cerboros_redux(Cerboros Reborn); 2010-2-27 (#5910721@0)

同意，任何行业都有繁荣和衰落。IT不但是自掘坟墓，还挖了很多人的坟墓。automated process就是这个目的。IT也在发展，单纯的coding或许会消失，新的工种也会出现。 -coolmao(酷猫*Zensunni); 2010-2-24 (#5904359@0)
各行各业都差不多。如果工作没有挑战性和创造性，就很可能被淘汰或取代，outsourcing也好，automated也好。相对而言，IT可能还好一点。 -majorhomedepot(马甲后的炮); 2010-2-24 (#5904416@0)
典型的杞人忧天。 -wincity(toad); 2010-2-24 (#5904439@0)

come on, give me a few more justifications than a simple statement.. 好歹我码了不少字 -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-25 (#5904794@0)

大家说了不少了，尤其是悟空同志。你的主要论点是全球债务重，越来越养不起俺们。俺觉得正因为债务重，所以他们越来越要依靠IT来降低成本。 -wincity(toad); 2010-2-25 (#5904808@0)

I agreed in that "越要依靠IT来降低成本", but it does mean that "所以他们越来越要依靠IT Guys来降低成本" -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-25 (#5906494@0)

IT Gals, then? -wincity(toad); 2010-2-25 (#5906689@0)
sorry.. typo.. I agreed in that "越要依靠IT来降低成本", but it does mean not that "所以他们越来越要依靠IT Guys来降低成本" -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-25 (#5906764@0)

Your assumption seems to be that future demand will be going down in long term. This assumption does not sound solid. In terms of cutting cost, as many others already pointed out, increasing IT spending is a way to cut total cost. -majorhomedepot(马甲后的炮); 2010-2-25 (#5907237@0)

There is a subtle difference between the advance of IT technology and the demand for more IT people in developed world. I don't have the assumption you posted. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-25 (#5907503@0)

Just to make sure: Your assumption is that "the demand for more IT people in developed world" will be getting weak, right? This is exactly what I posted. However, it obviously contradicts to most available stats. The employment -majorhomedepot(马甲后的炮); 2010-2-26 {83} (#5908333@0)
of IT professionals in North America is among the fastest growing industry sectors.

Hmm.. From Q4/2005 to Q1/2010, except in Q1/Q2 2007, IT industry in U.S. has kept losing jobs. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-26 (#5908887@0)

Do you mind sharing your data? The data in US Department of Labor is different from what you said. They provide both stats and projections. -majorhomedepot(马甲后的炮); 2010-2-26 (#5909347@0)

只要比较10年前就可以看出趋势。 10年钱硅谷IT的平均工资是12万，现在是10万。但是， 10年前100块一小时的合同是很难拿到的，现在却比比皆是。结论很清楚，混混们和真正的程序员的价值在分化。 -cerboros_redux(Cerboros Reborn); 2010-2-25 (#5904797@0)

Thanks. But my intention was not to single out elite programmers, but as a comment to IT industry of a whole. There are always exceptions in every corner of the world. -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-25 (#5904803@0)

IT has been playing an important role so have IT professionals. Yet IT will never be dominating business. It is always the other way round. IT professionals do have a great future but not on an elite business level. Unless they -thornthorn(Holy Moly); 2010-2-25 {25} (#5904847@0)
take 老猫 as an example.

Thanks! I am a role role -mikesmith(老猫); 2010-2-25 {19} (#5907246@0)
of a useless IT guy

Role model of IT professionals. -thornthorn(Holy Moly); 2010-2-25 (#5907578@0)

I am not sure whether it would be a good practice for you to think outside the box. One thinking from a different perspective is faith. What's your faith in IT industry? -whynot108(s2w); 2010-2-25 {601} (#5904857@0)
The following quote is talking about the importance of faith for successful investors.

"The single most important characteristic of successful investors is faith. This includes faith in the markets, in the future, in our free enterprise system, in the ability of good companies to grow their profits, and in humanity.

Successful investors tend to have this confidence and optimism. They see how much humanity has progressed in recent history and tend to see their optimism as realism. They don’t know how things will turn out all right – they just know that they will turn out all right…'

Faith is required, but for IT folks, it plays only a minor role. IT is changing at lightening speed. IT folks must be agile to adapt and learn new tricks quickly. Investors, on the other hand, can simply buy and hold and prosper, -forevermore(and more); 2010-2-25 {83} (#5904913@0)
and let your faith drive the growth. At least that's the case for value investors.

Your post title should be changed to: "Does a IT guy without good people skill and sharp learning capacity have a bright future?" -nicetomeetyou(轻松淡定灌筑江山); 2010-2-25 (#5904893@0)

"Does -thornthorn(Holy Moly); 2010-2-25 {88} (#5904923@0)
aN IT guy without good people skillS and sharp learning capacity have a bright future?"

同意。看看俺们公司就是这个趋势。狂CUT15%的人，都外包到印度去了。以便节省30%的开支。去年底ROGERS也开始这样做了。。 -hostler(......); 2010-2-25 (#5904912@0)

You pay for what you get. Some out-sourced businesses have been relocated to their home bases. Not everything can be out-sourced. Consumers are the final judge. If they don’t buy your products/services -thornthorn(Holy Moly); 2010-2-25 {51} (#5905031@0)
due to unsatisfied/bad experience then you are don.

在很早很早以前，人们是摘果子吃的。过了一段时间，有些人学会做饭了。又过了一段时间，有些人当厨子了。 -urmylove(麻袋); 2010-2-25 {333} (#5905032@0)
在很早很早以前，人们是摘果子吃的。
过了一段时间，有些人学会做饭了。
又过了一段时间，有些人当厨子了。
现在呢？我会摘果子；假如以“可以下咽”为标准的话，我也会做饭；但我不是厨子，我是 IT guy。
我不知道以前有没有 AT, ET，反正现在是 IT，以后可能会有 OT, UT, ...

我现在不清楚，对于 future 来说，"IT"中的"I"关键，还是"T"关键？
对于打工仔来说，过好眼前的每一天就是福气。对于有事业心的人，看清自己的价值，摆好自己的位置，端正自己的心态更重要。职业竞争中，有成功就有失败，赢的时候多赢点，输的时候少输点，就算可以了。 -buma(。。。。); 2010-2-25 (#5905349@0)

+1 -nicetomeetyou(轻松淡定灌筑江山); 2010-2-25 (#5906640@0)

It's interesting to see all the comments -revir(fun); 2010-2-25 {283} (#5906994@0)
Everybody has different point of view depending on your position, your job function or your speciality. As a non-IT but has to keep up with all the changes in this industry, I have to agree with 老猫's overview and prediction to the future. Guys, soon, you will realize he is right.

Who cares...过一天是一天，活一天快乐一天。 -nicetomeetyou(轻松淡定灌筑江山); 2010-2-25 (#5907011@0)

There is no right or wrong answer here. Everybody reacts differently. I guess it will depend on the personality. Enjoy. -revir(fun); 2010-2-25 (#5907055@0)

要这样想,你整天跟着活宝似的,谁不要你,谁不留你啊.... -nicetomeetyou(轻松淡定灌筑江山); 2010-2-25 (#5907343@0)

我看到的问题不是future不 future的事情，而是现在正在发生的事情。控制成本就是砍人砍机器，各位好之为知吧。吃饭的地方多的是！ -scar_fair(scar-man); 2010-2-26 (#5908753@0)
上帝会安排好的，这事用不着你操心。IT GUYS 应该是中产以上。 -tonyhao(tonyhao); 2010-2-27 (#5910703@0)
IT 覆盖的领域很多。有的领域在萎缩，有的在增长，有的领域可以说掌握着公司的命脉，比如Financial systems, MRP systems, HR / payroll systems。如果是我，我会向CIO propose 一个花大钱的IT方案，但是这个方案可以为公司节省几倍于IT cost的开销。 -mimier(mimier); 2010-2-28 {33} (#5913353@0)
IT Guy 要看清自己领域的发展方向。

yes 虽然云计算会减少部分软硬件的需求，但其他如嵌入式计算近年来一直在增长。宏观看，IT 职位在增多。 -michaeljackson(You Rock My World); 2010-2-28 (#5913415@0)

Our answer: Develop our own IT Outsourcing industry in China -watersd(Waters); 2010-3-1 {1607} (#5915604@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Automation and cost cutting has been going on in the IT industry since the very beginning. India has utilized these dynamics to build an extremely successful IT Outsourcing industry. Today, it employs almost 1 million people in India. Major players like Infosys and TCS each employ over 100,000 people in India. Naturally, they have also created tens of thousands of jobs in North America and Europe, many for ethnic Indians. These jobs include onsite project managers, consultants (functional and technical), team leads, coordinators, engagement managers, account managers, etc. If you examine the population growth Indians in Canada, US and Europe, I bet the growth in their ITO / BPO (IT outsourcing and Business Process outsourcing) industries are largely responsible.

In terms of resource availability, cost, infrastructure, government support, China is extremely competitive when compared with India. However, China started in this game a little late and is playing catch-up today.

I am with Freeborders, a top ITO provider that delivers software development, testing & support services from China to customers in North America and Europe.

My goal is two fold:

1. Provide global customers with quality IT services and quantifiable cost savings.
2. Do my part to help turn China into the next destination of choice for IT outsourcing services.

I am looking for like-minded people to join us in our effort to develop China's ITO industry and to create jobs in North America, Europe and China.

If you are interested, please contact me directly at: waters.deng@freeborders.com更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
http://www.freeborders.com

这个话题很多人都提到。你不觉得语言会让中国在这方面的竞争力大打折扣？很想知道你的看法。我工作中，跟很多印度人打交道，有从印度直接过来的contractor, 有在印度本土的developer, 他们的英语口语都很好， conference call, knowledge transfer 都很熟练。 -mimier(mimier); 2010-3-1 {115} (#5916126@0)
我们在印度有一个Global delivery center, 有的人是做我们自己的项目，有的直接给客户用，那些developer英语交流都很流利。

语言还不是最大的问题。真正的问题在于国家的法律法规对版权的态度基本消灭了软件业赖以生存的土壤，而防火长城也掐灭了可能的星星之火。总不能让一帮没见过facebook和gmail的人开发web 2.0吧。 -majorhomedepot(马甲后的炮); 2010-3-1 (#5916751@0)

这个我到不觉得是问题。spec是这边写好了的，那边就管coding. -mimier(mimier); 2010-3-2 (#5917769@0)

Language is no longer a problem for us. -watersd(Waters); 2010-3-2 {1012} (#5918253@0)
We have two development centers in China (Shenzhen and Wuxi) and our teams in China currently serve many Fortune 500 clients. Language is not an issue. All of the engineers we employ can read and write in English. 30% of them speak fluent English. Many of them had overseas experience. We also utilize onsite consultants in North America and Europe. Some are hired locally. Some are sent over from China on a short term basis. For some clients, we regularly send consultants from China to the US and rotate them every 3 - 6 months. Knowledge transfer, conference calls, change management, project management, etc. are not a problem.

Another encouraging sign I see is that new college graduates in China have better English skills. Many of our fresh graduates grow very quickly on the job and become team leads within 2 - 3 years.

The main problem for us is mind share: most companies in North America are comfortable working with Indian providers. They view China based providers as higher risk.

IP Protection is not an issue for IT Outsourcing providers in China -watersd(Waters); 2010-3-2 {1008} (#5918304@0)
China has joined the WTO and follows the relevant rules regarding IP protection.

Our company is headquartered in the US and we abide by US laws & regulations regarding intellectual property rights. We have contracts with all of our clients stipulating that the IP rights resulting from our team's work belong to the client who's paying for the work.

We are ISO 27001 certified and many global financial services companies trust us enough to have their software developed, tested and supported out of China.

China's laws regarding IP protection is every bit as good as India. In terms of enforcement, China is equally as good. China gets a bad reputation because of the wide array of fake products manufactured in China. Those manufacturers are typically small operations and very difficult to stamp out. It has nothing to do with our industry, but unfortunately, that reputation does make it a little more difficult for us to promote China based IT Outsourcing services in North America.

Thanks for sharing your insights. As you mentioned, the damaged reputation increases the perception of business risk. Do you think China has an edge competing with India? -majorhomedepot(马甲后的炮); 2010-3-2 {377} (#5919226@0)
As far as I know, developer in China is paid similar to India. Considering the fact that the average salary in India is only one third of that in China, you know it is way more difficult to attract and retain talent in outsourcing development.

Another concern is the time zone. Developers in Indian can still have about half day overlapped with North American working hours.

"知己知彼，百战不殆“，这就是信息的价值，也是IT的价值，在这次金融危机中，CITI遭受重创，但是IT部门却没有CUT, 为什么？失去了信息的快速和准确，就失去了战斗力，IT不会萎缩，而会成为企业的核心力量。 -shadowman(Bright Shadow); 2010-3-2 (#5919373@0)
我不认为IT工作减少多少.真正适合外包的工作并不多,大部分是程序员的工作. 系统管理,服务,支持的大部分还是要留在本地. -viewsys(Viewsys); 2010-3-7 (#5928561@0)

@Edmonton

Language is no longer a problem for us.

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