If you are working for a company and its objective is to maximize shareholder value. And you are a middle management in a department with a goal to cut 25% cost. You have a plan that would help your department to achieve its 2 years goal. -hkchan(0) @埃德蒙顿华人论坛:埃德蒙顿枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of Edmonton

工作学习 / 事业与工作 / 所谓工作，其实就是大家互相doing a favour. 你这件事帮了我，我下件事帮你。努力形成正面反馈，建立工作中的朋友圈。这个圈子越大越好，最好包括老板和老板的老板。有人说，那我会不会被人占便宜，白干活呀？那我本职工作怎么办呢？ -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 {825} (#5691969@0)

顶~~~~~你说得太好了，我要认真学习和反思 -arcong(阿莲); 2009-11-19 (#5692003@0)

我也是看了最近的一个帖子引起的反思。 -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 (#5692036@0)

最近我一直在想这个问题，你说出了我的心声。。。放眼一望，周围的super star一定是热衷于帮助别人的人。其实工作就是两件事，get the job done，help people get the job done，两件事一样重要，缺一不可 -arcong(阿莲); 2009-11-19 (#5692089@0)

well said -kk1997(咱有能力创造幸福); 2009-11-20 (#5693176@0)

do you a favor by bumping it. -reed(芦苇); 2009-11-19 (#5692028@0)

thanks! -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 (#5692032@0)

YGPM -reed(芦苇); 2009-11-19 (#5692098@0)

Wa! Jusus in work. -firetrain(火车头); 2009-11-19 (#5692051@0)
是这个理儿。土话说的好，人人为我，我为人人。洋话说得更好：Treat Others As You Want To Be Treated，主语是Treat Others在先，不像土话人人为我在先。。。 -noproblem(密西洒家。o O); 2009-11-19 (#5692080@0)
这不是官官相护吗？不利于社会发展。:) -sunday8(每个年头都有新的梦景); 2009-11-19 (#5692125@0)
well said -ddlldd2000(hunting); 2009-11-19 (#5692148@0)
牛. 这里面的事情, 能够1个月做到一件, 就不得了了. -dusk(~小桥流水~); 2009-11-19 (#5692219@0)
要拍拍 -vetra(豆泡果之多泡泡); 2009-11-19 {14} (#5692220@0)
不是拍砖，是MP
Very well said. Following your ideas, I created a LinkedIn group for those IT professionals on Rolia. Everybody is welcome to join, to expand your connections and networking: -sailor(Mountains&Ocean); 2009-11-19 (#5692273@0)

great. just joined -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 (#5692295@0)

I also created a more generic LinkedIn group, called "Professionals on Rolia": -sailor(Mountains&Ocean); 2009-11-19 (#5692276@0)
充其量这些是一般工作场合的要求...... 迎合了大众的心理和预期..... -nicetomeetyou(蓦然回首彩虹跨天地); 2009-11-19 (#5692289@0)

欢迎谈谈在非大众场合的要求和心理预期 :) -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 (#5692303@0)

生活的危机感不是源于工作可能会丢, 与老板, 同事关系会搞僵, 这些都不过是小学生就开始学的社会技能. 人生在世是个梦, 你要去解析它, 实现它, 音乐,风情画, 诗歌永远是你的动力,和朋友. 你的工作就是作画,吟诗, 和谱曲. 为家人,朋友,上帝,和自己. -nicetomeetyou(蓦然回首彩虹跨天地); 2009-11-19 (#5692321@0)
迎合大众是一种尘世中的自我保护, 向在心中的上帝祈祷时, 你要请他原谅自己的软弱, 和无原则. -nicetomeetyou(蓦然回首彩虹跨天地); 2009-11-19 (#5692338@0)

牛哥, 过了, 过了, 连上帝都整出来了. -coolmao(酷猫*Arrakis); 2009-11-19 (#5692451@0)

牛哥说的是孩儿他娘。。 -z24(Quick! Winterizing); 2009-11-19 (#5692453@0)

空即是色色即是空。血肉之躯不堪一击人死灯灭一切如梦幻泡影。 -walkthrough(discover); 2009-11-19 (#5692619@0)

这是高的境界, 人要生活,更要高于生活, 你高,别人跟你走. -nicetomeetyou(蓦然回首彩虹跨天地); 2009-11-19 (#5692694@0)

太高了，别人看不到了，或者理解不了，就会高处不胜寒。。中庸中庸。。。 -webbwebb(rr_rolia); 2009-11-20 (#5693171@0)
能顷刻间做几个来回拿起放下动作，得个清凉自在才好。 -walkthrough(discover); 2009-11-20 (#5694087@0)

Looks right, but it is wrong. -vicky2005(孩子她爹); 2009-11-19 (#5692291@0)

谓之莫需有 -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 (#5692310@0)

做“好好先生”不如做“憨豆先生” -dvd(weiwei); 2009-11-19 (#5692424@0)
工作太轻松啊, 还有时间帮这帮那的. 哈哈. -coolmao(酷猫*Arrakis); 2009-11-19 (#5692452@0)

那就是我80%的工作。LOL. -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 (#5692617@0)

Overall you are right because most of people are nice and reasonable. That's why "你帮我，我帮你”could become true. However, when you extend your hands to help others, don't expect that you'll get return. -rolialover(小快); 2009-11-19 {109} (#5692460@0)
A simple question but no offence - "Are you saying you only want to help those who can help you later on? "

首先一条是知恩图报，别人帮我的忙我都记着。至于帮别人嘛，你永远不可能知道将来的情况，能有个20% 的回报率已经很不错了，但广播善缘总是没错的。 -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 (#5692611@0)

很同意。 -rolialover(小快); 2009-11-20 (#5693172@0)

I used to know someone who suggest to run an IT department like a business, i.e. money oriented. Every project must meet company's finanial goal, 15.5% ROI. Every technicla people is against this idea; including his boss. -hkchan(0); 2009-11-19 {821} (#5692628@0)
He bypassed his boss and presented the idea to his VP and subsequently the CIO. The CIO loved his idea. Less than 2 years, he was promoted from a director to a VP. He left the company a few years later and become a CIO of a public utility company.

Vision is something a lot of people cannot not see. Most people would be against new idea. And only people with vision would dare to challenge the whole system. He disagree with his colleagus. He challenged his boss, his boss's boss. But eventually, he bcame his boss's boss' boss! He believes himself.

This is not the only example I see, to become your boss's boss's boss! Their path is very hard and tough but it is definitely rewarding.

Do you dare to say NO to your colleague, to your boss or even your boss's boss when you think you are right?

There are 3 drivers for one's behavour 1) a sense of power 2) a sense of accomplishment 3) a sense of relationship. -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 {425} (#5692668@0)
The main driver for me is the 3rd one. I don't care too much about the vision or the company or the money or the postion. But I do care about people. If I feel saying no is to help him, I'd do so without a question, even in the expense of my own benefit. If I feel saying no is to help myself and hurt the other guy, I probbaly won't. The RIGHT thing does not mean a thing to me. Making people happy is my ultimate goal.

Mine is satisfaction! I can stay at middle management and earned 6 digit salary but I didn't feel any achievement. I like to work with small business owener rather than big enterprise. I have immediate satisfaction when I sovled their problems. -hkchan(0); 2009-11-19 {136} (#5692688@0)
With big enterprise, even the business owner loves my idea; I may have to wait another 6 months and kill half a dozen architects or VPs.

My proposal would never improve ROI at the expense of people. That one alone makes me look "weak" in the business world But I don't care. Job is important for each individual, business can wait. -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 (#5692711@0)

We have different priorities. -hkchan(0); 2009-11-19 (#5692726@0)

we agree on the disagreement. -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-19 (#5692728@0)

I always like to work with people who disagree with me. They put money in my pocket! -hkchan(0); 2009-11-19 (#5692772@0)

To me, you're also a high "I" person who wants to make influence and focus on people relationship "helping people makes you feel happy". Just that you hate bureaucrats and you have a passion for life. -rolialover(小快); 2009-11-20 (#5693179@0)

A person with Big ego; Self-centered; see "Mental-Health Issues and Challenging Clients in Executive Coaching" -skitennis(tennisfan); 2009-11-22 (#5697577@0)
I don't know much about this high "I" person, do you mind to send me more info. BTW, who would like bureaucrats ? -hkchan(0); 2009-11-23 (#5699657@0)

You can google "DISC" personality test. The one on wiki is attached. It's been a tool used by CMA SLP (strategic leadership program) and lots of other behavior study program. -rolialover(小快); 2009-11-24 {216} (#5702285@0)
You might also hear lots of variations from the theory. Such as Personality Dimensions (talking about 4 colors). Here's one consultant's website - www.mtudor.com. He gave a wonderful speech to children and parents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISC_assessment

You're a typical "I" person who focus on "influence" and "people relationship" per DISC profile (a personality test tool) -rolialover(小快); 2009-11-20 (#5693170@0)

嘿，何必呢，我就是不乐意...LOL -canoneye(心晴); 2009-11-19 (#5692653@0)
This also works for small business. I helped a lot of people without asking for return. But when I did stupid things on marketing. sales, or public speaking. A lot of people would offer thier help. -hkchan(0); 2009-11-19 {340} (#5692661@0)
And this theory works for all relationship which is like a saving account. When you help people, you deposit money to your saving account. When you need help; somehow someone would offer their help, you withdraw from your saving account.

I often suggest to Chinese immigrants to do volunteer works, you never know who is watching you.

就是。得不得道，不是在你春风得意时，而是在你有挫折时，别人是帮你（包括帮你掩饰，打圆场，大事化小，小事化了），冷眼旁观，落井下石呢？当然，恩将仇报的也有，但总是极少数。 -hurrah(猫眼); 2009-11-20 (#5693308@0)

有点游刃有余一览众山小的感觉哈。 -walkthrough(discover); 2009-11-19 (#5692664@0)
职场成功无定式，条条大路通罗马。。。这种你好我好大家好的老好人行事方式，无疑在某种层次（比如做辅助工作）上是非常可行的和成功的，上到决策层次后就无法贯彻执行了。。。 -nodream(～～～); 2009-11-20 (#5693380@0)

上层基本就是在角力，特别是在政府里做，加拿大人不喜欢权力，那都是假话 -vetra(豆泡果之多泡泡); 2009-11-20 (#5693393@0)

这个世界权力说了算,民意不过使权力得到一些均衡. 看看政府,媒体对现在军队在阿富汗的丑闻的反应.... -nicetomeetyou(蓦然回首彩虹跨天地); 2009-11-20 (#5693412@0)

相信你从来没有处在过决策层，只是想象决策层的人做决定不需要同僚，下属支持就能贯彻的。 -hurrah(猫眼); 2009-11-20 (#5693400@0)

决策层的精髓在于利益权衡，上到一定层次，就无法满足各方面的需要，必须权衡利弊做出抉择。。。你显然没有在决策层呆过。。。 -nodream(～～～); 2009-11-20 (#5693425@0)

两位，打住，别为这点小事打嘴架。兄弟我还真没在决策层待过，本人是胸无大志，只想教书的主。 -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-20 (#5694143@0)
我在100人以内的IT创业型公司做过副总经理，分管技术部、通信运营部、行政部、人力资源部，另一副总经理主要负责市场推广，总经理负责财务部及销售。当然这是在国内的时候。说说你的决策层经历？ -hurrah(猫眼); 2009-11-20 (#5695146@0)

网上空口无凭，因此我从不参与任何网上XB或PK，只用经历说事，本着低调做人，高调做事的原则。。。我不是反对在职场上do everybody a favor，只是认为一旦上到决策层，面对方方面面的无尽需求，手中的时间和资源变得有限，已经无法做到老猫所说的那些。 -nodream(～～～); 2009-11-23 {120} (#5699547@0)
在决策层无论是管理和权利角斗，更重要的是权衡利弊做出有利于现在和将来的选择，在正确的时间和正确的位置做对正确的事情。。。

It is called vision! And sometime you have to against all odds and do what you believe is right! If you always follow the mainstream, you would always be one of hudred or thousand. -hkchan(0); 2009-11-23 (#5699662@0)

两位，doing a favor跟你有没有vision，会不会下决策没有必然的冲突。doing favor给别人多的人，他的决策往往被执行的更好。其实dominance型的个人能力都是比一般人强，但他们事业成功的几率并不比一般人高，缺少别人的支持是一个主要原因啊。想想为什么胡锦涛、 -hurrah(猫眼); 2009-11-23 {38} (#5701128@0)
习近平上位，而不是王兆国、李克强上位。

你的理解有误，这里谈论的是在决策层谁更重要的问题，与vision想比，doing favor属于锦上添花，不起决定作用。胡锦涛、习近平之所以上位，首先是他们有政治敏锐度（vision），在残酷的政治斗争中权衡利弊总是做出正确的选择，始终没有站错队。。。 -nodream(～～～); 2009-11-24 (#5701885@0)
If you are working for a company and its objective is to maximize shareholder value. And you are a middle management in a department with a goal to cut 25% cost. You have a plan that would help your department to achieve its 2 years goal. -hkchan(0); 2009-11-24 {1456} (#5702401@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛But it requires a massive laid off, your plan is to let go 30% of technical people. Are you going to do them a favor and keep your mouth shut and don't tell anyone about your vision and plan.

It is your job and responsibility to align your vision with your departmental and company goal!

And you know once it is successful implemented, you would also get promoted to senior management very soon.

BTW, it is a hypothetical situation; so don't ask me about details.

Many years ago, my VP asked me to go with him to attain a business planning meeting. I was one of the few IT guys who knows well about business planning. Apart from me, everyone else was VP except a guy from Corporate Finance. He was only an AVP at that time. He only said 1 thing in the whole meeting. If we couldn't cut another 25%, then we could not be able to meet the company objective, 15.5% ROI. He would have to report to CFO and then CEO. His boss just sat there and said nothing. Every VP was mad and argued that they already cut everything they could.

2 weeks after the meeting, every IT department submitted a preliminary revised business plan that included further 25% cut. Our department was over achieved with 30% cut and our VP was very happy after the meeting, because our CIO said he did a great job.

I left the company soon after this because I could not face the consequence. But I heard the AVP was soon promoted to VP and he is now SVP.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

你跟nodream一定要人选择Vision和doing favor了。你们没有理解doing favor是操作层面的，而Vision是战略决策层面的。一个有好的Vision的人，才会在doing 方面更得心应手。同样是裁员，为什么有的公司员工对着干，有的公司员工表示理解，doing favor起很大作用。 -hurrah(猫眼); 2009-11-24 (#5702462@0)

I think your point is exactly nodream's point. "doing favor是操作层面的" and "Vision是战略决策层面" So now we agree that there may not be always room to do a favor in "决策层面" . -hkchan(0); 2009-11-24 {511} (#5702659@0)
But most senior management understand this is the way to do business. My VP was very mad when he stepped out from the meeting room. But next morning, he called me into his office to start the new business plan.

I saw a lot of successful examples of dominance型的management. No body liked them except the CxO but CxO are the one who is going to promote them. But I saw a failed case that half of the AVP left in 6 months time and the CIOs decided to let him go is better than losing the other half of AVP.

我跟他的观点完全是两码事。他是说决策层的人不应该do favor。我的意思是决策层的人既要有好的vision（战略决策层面），又能够do favor（操作层面），才能真正把决策落实好。你的观点呢？ -hurrah(猫眼); 2009-11-24 (#5703634@0)

Both! I did favor to a lot of people; so a lot of things that used to take couple of weeks paper works, I could just make a call and it would be done in 10 seconds. Let me tell you another story about how these 2 can happened at the same time. -hkchan(0); 2009-11-24 {2029} (#5703802@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛I had a Chinese programmer who worked for over 10 years without any promotion. And I would say he is better than most senior system analyst in my department. Durng one of the management performance meeting, a manager suggested to promote another programmer who joined company for less than a year to senior analyst. It was her first job.

I suggested we should promote the Chinese programmer instead. That manager was very upset but I argue that the new programmer was far away from senior analyst and I showed a few examples. Everyone including our department head agreed with me. And we later on found out that he had an affair with the new programmer. You can guess how our working relationship became.

In this situation, I could only do a favor to either the Chinese programmer or the manager becasue there was only 1 opening.

Another example is that I was a solution architect to bring in the first Microsoft IIS intranet application into our company. We were a big Lotus Notes shop and they want every web application on Java. Everyone else said NO; especially the security architect. He requested our system to put a log on every activity from displaying a gif file on html to reading data from database. Everything must be logged to anoter server. I estimated the extra hardware cost would be so high that our business users had to give up the application.

At the end, I send his security architecture document to Microsoft Canada for comment; and subsequently called a meeting with Microsoft and invited all the architects who said NO to this project; plus their VP. At the end of meetng, I asked the VP if he was comfortable. He gave the green light. Since then, we had a lot of IIS intranet applications and all those architects always gave me hard time. I had to go to their VP to get approval for every project.

But my business user was happy, my department head was happy and so as my developers because they could learn new technology. They didn't have to use Notes for everything.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

There are a few basic qualities being a person, not only in work place, but in everyday life, including honesty, fairness, and integrity. -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-24 {379} (#5703840@0)
Vision, decisiveness, pursuit of quality work, innovation are other qualities in the work place.

"doing a favor" does not have to over rule those basic qualities. .

I am not in favor of 1) power from an authority figure 2) voting. Gaining rough consensus is an art, and that should be the way to go to achieve technical excellency. I will write another article about it.

Look forward to your next article. I was not in favor of getting the VP to override his architects' decision. And I was fully aware of the consequence. But I had to follow my heart! Should I tell my users that they have to pay 5 times the cost? -hkchan(0); 2009-11-24 {36} (#5703860@0)
I couldn't justify the cost myself.

显摆谈不上，再说好汉不提当年勇。但是体会还总是有的，总比有些人空想出来更靠谱一些。 -hurrah(猫眼); 2009-11-23 (#5701157@0)

The key point is : are you proud of being 处在过决策层? Why you are proud of 处在过决策层? Why? -skitennis(tennisfan); 2009-11-22 (#5697590@0)

你这些问题跟nodream说的topic无关吧? -hurrah(猫眼); 2009-11-22 (#5697713@0)

The topic is what is 工作. the author described his view of the relations between the Job, the motivation. So, What makes you proud of be 处在过决策层? -skitennis(tennisfan); 2009-11-22 (#5697796@0)

nodream说的是处在决策层的话，楼主的帮人说就不成立了。你的问题跟这个风马牛不相及。不过就你的问题回答：任何一个积极向上的人在任何位置都有proud。同样在任何位置，你都有可能感觉不爽的时候。 -hurrah(猫眼); 2009-11-22 (#5697998@0)

决策层有权力，在国内自然有地位，随之而来的是金钱和美女，有着极高的附加值。与国内相比，国外对决策层的监督机制相当完善，可供随意支配的资源有限，附加值大为减低。。。 -nodream(～～～); 2009-11-23 (#5699575@0)

very well said -win(秋天的菠菜); 2009-11-20 (#5693382@0)
这是你行为处事的方式, 我也看见过和你近似的本地人. 我觉得挺好. -choice(月光下的凤尾竹); 2009-11-21 (#5696924@0)
"这个圈子越大越好，最好包括老板和老板的老板" --- 我就是对这句话有点质疑, 呵呵. -nicetomeetyou(蓦然回首彩虹跨天地); 2009-11-21 (#5696973@0)

What is your 质疑? Let me share a story with you. I know a director who graduated from top 5 university in US. Our company has offices outside GTA. Eeverytime our VP has meeting in those office, he always scheduled meeting around similar time -hkchan(0); 2009-11-22 {477} (#5697598@0)
so he could drive the VP back and forth.

He didn't smoke but everytime he saw our CIO smoking outside, he aslo ran out with his coffee mug.

Another VP's wife had a women night every Tuesday, he told the VP he loved baby and went to help the VP every Tuesday!

I don't know if there are other stories.

He was supposed to be our Notes domain expert but even my parttime Notes knowledge was better than him. But he was at all the high level management committes.

工作场所应该professional, 互相协作, 责任拎清; 不要轻易踏入别人的领域, 除非ask for; 如果把工作间的相互配合当成"do 别人 favour", 大家都会很累. -redhouse(redhouse); 2009-11-22 {344} (#5697191@0)
如果你有很大的精力do 别人favour, 说明你的work load 太小.
如果和你的peer比, 你总是处理的轻松利落, 你应该step up 去承担更多的责任, 提高你的impact & influence (promotion)
如果你天真的以为帮助别人就交了朋友，　你以后会后悔的．

要是你能干，　好不好干点大事，　多向邓锋，　谢铧们看，　跑到肉联和我们这些天天找饭的ＩＴ民工找优越感，　不觉的掉份？

“be professional, 互相协作, 责任拎清; 不要轻易踏入别人的领域, 除非ask for“ 和 “把工作间的相互配合当成 do ME a favour" 之间并无矛盾。一个是怎么做事，一个是以什么心态做事。 -mikesmith(老猫); 2009-11-22 {104} (#5697246@0)
不过这只是我的行为方式，来自我的inner driver，我追求的和常人眼里的成功相去甚远，解释起来颇麻烦，就算了。

Golden words! Wish to do a favor to this kind of boss -skitennis(tennisfan); 2009-11-22 (#5697556@0)

@Edmonton

If you are working for a company and its objective is to maximize shareholder value. And you are a middle management in a department with a goal to cut 25% cost. You have a plan that would help your department to achieve its 2 years goal.

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